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US elections: Obama wins Democratic nomination for president
The Guardian
4 June 2008
Barack Obama made history tonight by beating Hillary Clinton for the Democratic nomination to become the first African American with a viable chance of winning the White House.
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Only a 'grave threat' would trigger 42-day detention, say ministers
The Independent
4 June 2008
New powers to hold terror suspects for up to 42 days without charge would be triggered only by a "grave and exceptional" threat akin to the 7 July bombings in London, ministers said yesterday as they moved to defuse a potentially devastating revolt by Labour MPs.
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Location: Blogs Emdad Rahman |
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Posted by: Emdad Rahman |
25/05/2007 08:47 |
In The Times, Sean O’ Neill refers to Tabligh as a secretive sect that has begun a charm offensive to woo the gullible people of the United Kingdom into accepting the groups evil masterplan, in order to gain absolute worldwide domination.
As a novice journalist it really gets up my goatee when I see, hear or read respectable journalists conjuring up such despicable monstrosities and serving them up as the findings of investigative journalism.
The Tablighi methodology is an effort that is close to my heart. The question that baffles me the most and thus led me to pen this column, is why Tabligh is the target of such vitriol?
Tablighi Jamaat is very much a mainstream and predominately apolitical organisation seeking to proselytise faith in a peaceful manner. The Jamaat boasts of millions of peaceful adherents the world over. The beauty of the Jamaat effort is that everybody sings from the same hymn sheet, be they in London or Brisbane, Antarctica or the forests of Brazil.
This brings us to the question of the size of this so called mega Mosque. To entertain arguments and accusations with carefully planned suggestions that the planned Mosque will accommodate a capacity of 70,000 worshippers is ridiculous, to say the least. We are not talking about Wembley Stadium or the theatre of dreams here. This is a place of worship, not Camp Nou. Twelve to twenty thousand is probably the maximum number of attendees the Mosque is ever likely to have on very special and one off occasions, like a major European or world gathering of Tablighis.
Another misconception is based on the project being funded by the Saudi Royal family. The Saudis, the best friends of our respected Governments in the West, also seem to be the only group accused of funding evil, when charitable donations are made. I’m no great fan but there is plenty of evidence of Saudi funding of a variety of humanitarian causes that are not just restricted to Muslims. Will all due respect, nothing could be further from the truth. The Royal family have no influence over the teachings and activities of Tabligh. The project since it’s inception has been funded by small donations from Tablighis and there has been absolutely no contact with the Saudi Royal family regarding funding.
O’ Neill’s short article also referred to the group as one that ‘intelligence agencies fear is a gateway to extremism.’ John Walker Lindh is one example of an individual that left the Tablighi Jamaat after finding the activities to be too mellow and not conducive to his more militant views. Also mentioned is the strong local opposition that has generated bad publicity and of government ministers seeking to block planning permission.’ The second part may very well be true and planning permission is by no means a certaintly, as innacurate and sensational media coverage and distortion of the groups efforts may very well be a bold influence over decisions taken. I think if we studied the matter closely enough we’d notice that lurking somewhere in a dark hole is the main detractor, Councillor Allan Craig of the Christian Peoples Alliance. Craig, who is widely accused of being an Islamophobe, is a real extremist who is hiding is innate hatred for Islam behind a cloak of so called debate. As a Newham Councillor, I don’t believe Craig has ever visited the Mosque, nor has he ever sat down to discuss matters face to face. Instead he has relied upon his vivid imagination and preconceived ideas, backed up by so called academics and experts on Islam, to offer up his own version of this so called threat.
For years Tablighis, despite being advocates of peace have had to put up with their dedication being ridiculed, and this leads me to make a 3 point suggestion; Take your spy camera and recording equipment and please visit the Thursday gathering at a Markaz near you. Grab a Tablighi, by which I mean someone who has spent time within the effort and question them till the cows come home. Spend three days with a Jamaat travelling on a Tablighi mission.
What goes round comes round and as a supporter of the benevolent efforts of the Jamaat I can’t help but wonder that all the negative publicity will actuallly push people into seeking the truth out for themselves. Despite the contract with Indigo PR this kind of publicity could never be purchased.
After years of so called ‘secrecy’, Tablighi Jamaat launches a campaign to simply enable people to say the truth. An opposing campaign starts, accusing the Jamaat of trying to woo an unsuspecting public. The sad fact is that these writers and preachers underestimate the majority of the great British public. They believe that their mudslinging will lead to resentment, outrage and possibly physical action against fellow humans. This is exactly what happened to the Jews prior to the holocaust. Progressive thinkers would agree that the move to appoint PR specialists is a good move by the Jamaat to be more open and inclusive, which begs the question; are there nefarious reasons for such negativity and does all this slandering actually make sense? |
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Aisha on the Rocks on
25/05/2007 10:52 |
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Just goes to show - try to follow the Jewish example (Isral hired a PR firm to publicise it!) - and you get battered.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Waleed on
25/05/2007 12:51 |
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What do you mean 'Jewish example', you turd. These people have hired a PR firm as they so obviously have not got the confidence to speak to the media themselves for fear of being misquoted or manipulated. They just don't have the necessary expertise, is that bad?
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Hannah on
25/05/2007 12:56 |
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I've researched this sect. Tablighis are the Buddhists of the Muslim Ummah. I just don't get the attitudes of the white supremacist. It seems 'intolerance' nowadays has become a byword to describe Muslims only.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Proud Tablighi on
25/05/2007 13:49 |
Found this on Wikipedia,
Graham Fuller, a former CIA official and expert on Islam, characterized Tablighi Jamaat as a "peaceful and apolitical preaching-to-the-people movement."
Barbara Metcalf, a University of California scholar of South Asian Islam, called Tablighi Jamaat "an apolitical, quietist movement of internal grassroots missionary renewal" and compares its activities to the efforts to reshape individual lives by Alcoholics Anonymous.
Olivier Roy, a prominent authority on Islam at Paris's prestigious Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, described Tablighi Jamaat as "completely apolitical and law abiding."
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Barbara Metcalf, a University of California scholar of South Asian Islam, called Tablighi Jamaat "an apolitical, quietist movement of internal grassroots missionary renewal" and compares its activities to the efforts to reshape individual lives by Alcoholics Anonymous.
Olivier Roy, a prominent authority on Islam at Paris's prestigious Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, described Tablighi Jamaat as "completely apolitical and law abiding."'. This email was sent on 1/6/2009 12:23:53 AM. http://www.openmindsblogspot.com:80/HOME/tabid/36/EntryID/62/language/en-US/Default.aspx">
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Saracen on
25/05/2007 14:35 |
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The Saudis will never fund Tablighi projects as Tablighis are seen to be slight deviants, with a tendancy to constantly spout weak Ahadith at any given opportunity. Having said that they are genuinely the nicest people you could meet and a credit to Humankind.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By King Eric on
25/05/2007 15:02 |
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Thanks for the link Emdad. gotta say the good old Tablighis had it coming. I mean they're not real are they? I told you so springs to mind. Time to get head out of clouds and do some real activism. With the resources and numbers they got they could be doing real service for Islam. instead, they just concentrate on sleeping in Mosques and self preaching la la la zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Anon on
25/05/2007 15:19 |
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Well done for sticking up for the group Emdad
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Ynez on
25/05/2007 20:02 |
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Thanks for your topical analysis Tru Brit, you sick, illegitimate, spotty slimeball.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Minotaur on
25/05/2007 21:06 |
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The movement of Tableeghi Jamaat is being utilised by the enemies of Islam as an effective instrument in their struggle to prevent the emergence of a true Islamic movement in Europe and elsewhere in the world. Therefore, it is incumbent on all Muslims to disown it and discourage its activity in every way. The British were continually looking for ways of infiltrating and subverting Islam. They kept, through their comprehensive spy network, a very careful eye, on any new Muslim group and movement. The Tableeghi Jamaat was set up under the British Rule in India. After closely watching the Jamaat for some time, the British realised that here was exactly what they were looking for, a movement that totally absorbed the energy of its members and yet did not threaten British domination in any way as the doctrine of Jihad was totally absent in this movement. They saw that instead of the Jamaat's directing their energies outwardly towards their legitimate Kaafir enemies, was now directed inwardly towards the rest of the Muslims. Therefore, it was a group that was allowed to flourish. This news was spread to other interested parties.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Alf on
26/05/2007 13:26 |
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Thanks for enlightening us ignorant ones. Very good responses to the article.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By FYI on
26/05/2007 18:30 |
Deviation of Tablighi Jamaat:-
http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Religion_Reformers_in_Islam/ref-58.htm
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Yahya on
26/05/2007 18:45 |
one common misconception is that Tablighis rely on weak Hadith. please note this is only for VIRTUES and only a minute number of Hadith are quoted. Most of the Ahadith are Saheeh. This does not apply to matters of Fiqh.
Here's a link to the Fadhaile - e- Amal: http://www.alinaam.org.za/fazaail/fazail.html
Fadhaile - e - Sadaqat: http://www.alinaam.org.za/fazaail/sadaqat.html
I am in Derby and have contacts with Tablighis and Barelwis. i am rather worried as to how the Barelwis in light of such trials involving the Muslim community, manage to allow minor differences to spread so much bile. This is not to say Tablighis are perfect and I've heard many newcomers 'full of juice' , pumped up and bad mouthing other organisations.
I'd agree that the Tablighis are a credit to Muslims. They being apolitical has allowed others to represent us. At least they're not squabbling for power and representation are they? Would that solve things? would MPAC be happy if Tablighs overwhelming manpower saw them take centre stage. Most of our so called leaders would die rather than relinquish their positions on their lofty perches.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Tablighi humour on
26/05/2007 18:47 |
Q: What do you get if you get caught driving erratically or speeding by a Tablighi cop?
A: 6 points (Gerrit?????)
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By El Fadl on
27/05/2007 17:08 |
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I don't believe there's a sinister plot where they're in bed with Osama bin Laden but are hiding it," Professor El Fadl said. "But I think that militants exploit the alienated and withdrawn social attitude created by the Tablighis by fishing in the Tablighi pond.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Haroon on
27/05/2007 17:13 |
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Tabligh, nor it's activists have been accused of committing any crime or of supporting terrorism. Yet the authorities remain alert to what they see as the group's susceptibility to infiltration and manipulation. Anybody who has been active in Tabligh, who spends at least three days, will have an understanding of it's peaceful nature. As for the Saudis. Didn't Saudi Scholars once accuse Tablighis of bein apostates after the Barelwis pulled a fast one, but then retracted after a Tablighi/Dobandi deputation visited them to dispel the myths.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By B Kelly on
27/05/2007 19:16 |
Yes we should worry about the proposed Mosque. The money apparently is from the same source that funds Islamic terrorists. We do not want even more centres in the UK where they can train bombers. In one of the BBC news interviews with an Afghan male, he stated that they and the west could never be friends, because they regard us as infidels. Another stated that Islam will not rest until it is the worldwide religion. Hardly a move toward integration.
Enough is enough.!!This is Britain..."When in Britain do as the British".... am totally fed up/ exasperated with the everlasting Muslim community whinging and demanding what they wear & how they wish to behave in the name of Islam! If they can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law! and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, GO!NOW!.
Over twenty years ago Ray Honeyford, a Bradford headmaster who predicted the big multicultural mess we now face.
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If they can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law! and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, GO!NOW!.
Over twenty years ago Ray Honeyford, a Bradford headmaster who predicted the big multicultural mess we now face.
'. This email was sent on 1/6/2009 12:23:53 AM. http://www.openmindsblogspot.com:80/HOME/tabid/36/EntryID/62/language/en-US/Default.aspx">
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Sonia on
27/05/2007 19:49 |
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Keep it up Emdad honey. I don't know your cause and I won't pretend to understand it , but i'm behind you. Chin up old boy. knowing you has changed my life.xxx
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Abz on
28/05/2007 09:51 |
The Story of Shaykh Rabee' and Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh, the Heretical Sect of India
Shaykh Rabee' was asked about Jamaa'ah ut-Tableegh, so he said:
I have never gone with this Jamaa'ah, but indeed, I went for work, then, like, to Kashmir. And I became vacated from this work, and I passed through Delhi, so it was said to me: "Let us go to such and such place to visit the da'wah center of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh, and to, like, Nidhaam ud-Deen."
Nidhaam ud-Deen, this is a masjid nearby the da'wah center of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh, and inside of it are five graves, atop which are domes, which are worshipped alongside of Allaah, a clear worship, no dust on it (i.e. a figurative expression meaning that it is plain for everyone to see).
Then we went out to the masjid of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh, and it was being said, like, the people were disagreeing with each other as to whether there were graves in it or there weren't graves in it.
So 'Abdur-Rubb asked, this one whom I have mentioned, he asked a number of them: "Is there in this masjid – the masjid of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh – a grave or some graves?"
The clever ones [amongst them] said: "No, there are no graves in it. The grave of Illiyaas [1] is buried in Makkah," or such-and-such place, some far away place.
So he continued to ask until an individual guided him or informed him that the grave of Illiyaas was in the masjid, and next to it, the grave of his wife.
Then he came with the brother 'Abdur-Rubb to the two graves and stood over them. Then after he made sure [that these were the graves], he came back and said: "Come, I will show you these two graves."
So we looked, and so he said: "This is the grave of Illiyaas, and this is the grave of his wife, and they are inside of the masjid."
Then after that, we verified that there were four graves in this masjid, not two. We ve
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such place to visit the da'wah center of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh, and to, like, Nidhaam ud-Deen."
Nidhaam ud-Deen, this is a masjid nearby the da'wah center of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh, and inside of it are five graves, atop which are domes, which are worshipped alongside of Allaah, a clear worship, no dust on it (i.e. a figurative expression meaning that it is plain for everyone to see).
Then we went out to the masjid of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh, and it was being said, like, the people were disagreeing with each other as to whether there were graves in it or there weren't graves in it.
So 'Abdur-Rubb asked, this one whom I have mentioned, he asked a number of them: "Is there in this masjid – the masjid of Jamaa'at ut-Tableegh – a grave or some graves?"
The clever ones [amongst them] said: "No, there are no graves in it. The grave of Illiyaas [1] is buried in Makkah," or such-and-such place, some far away place.
So he continued to ask until an individual guided him or informed him that the grave of Illiyaas was in the masjid, and next to it, the grave of his wife.
Then he came with the brother 'Abdur-Rubb to the two graves and stood over them. Then after he made sure [that these were the graves], he came back and said: "Come, I will show you these two graves."
So we looked, and so he said: "This is the grave of Illiyaas, and this is the grave of his wife, and they are inside of the masjid."
Then after that, we verified that there were four graves in this masjid, not two. We ve'. This email was sent on 1/6/2009 12:23:53 AM. http://www.openmindsblogspot.com:80/HOME/tabid/36/EntryID/62/language/en-US/Default.aspx">
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Imam Suhaib Webb answers about the Tablighi Jamaat on
28/05/2007 10:08 |
Full comment:- http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-19765.html
A Few Points:
1. Mawlana Ilyas (may Allah have mercy on him) did not appear out of a vacuum. Like so many other great luminaries of our umma, the Mawlana was surrounded by wonderful parents who encouraged him to be a great Muslim. Thus, our brothers and sisters should focus on raising the next Imam Shafi’i, Malik or Salah al-din. Therefore, try to teach your children about the Sahaba (may Allah be well pleased with them). Then ask them to choose their favorite. Try to encourage that child to emulate the characteristics of that Sahabi. But remember that the most important lesson they will learn, are those that illuminate from the parents.
2. True tazkiyah leads one past mere focus upon the soul. A true servant of Allah is also concerned with the conditions and situations around him. Ibn Kathir relates that once Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) was asked, “Who is better? One who stays away from others, or one who mingles with others and continues to worship Allah?” Umar said, “Those who mingle with others, put up with their difficulties and continues to worship Allah, “Indeed, they are those whom Allah has tested their hearts for Taqwa.” At the same time mere actions with no inner connection are like an empty cup. Thus, Mawlana Ilyas represented a rare balance of a person. He had a personality built on sound knowledge, sound tazkiyah and sound actions.
3. It is important to realize that the Ahl-Sunna is very wide. It is very dangerous to declare different groups out of Ahl al-Sunna based on one’s mere love for their group. Thus, such issues should be left to the scholars. One thing that one should do is not merely listen to what others say about certain scholars such as Imam Ghazali or Ibn Taymiyya. It is always better to read about their lives and understand the historical and cultural realities that they dealt with.
4. In general it is important to re
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Simon on
28/05/2007 10:24 |
They are a deviant sect, very much like the wahabis, who by calling themselves the salafis, think they are folowing the path of the salaf. but in reality far from that. so expect those statements. =)
The tabligh jamat regard going on dawah better than many acts of worship such as jihad and seeking knowledge, even though those things are obligatory duties, or may be obligatory for some people but not others.
i have an uncle, a tablighi, who recently went on a dawah to pakistan & india for slightly more than 40days. his wife was complaining about the trip as he is the sole bread winner of the family & has 2 young kids, who are less than 5yr old, to take care of. its equivalent to neglecting the duty of a father to the family. the wife was having alot of difficulty in coping with the increased pressure. He knew the difficulty the wife would face, but by some brainwashing of the mind by the tablighi he told her not to worry as Allah will take care of her while he's away. What nonsense.
This incident says alot about this sect. Think about it all. May Allah save us from this deviants. Ameen.
The Abbey Mills Mosque takes it's cue from its Dewsbury headquarters. Dewsbury , like Leicester and Blackburn has the highest number of Ulamah in Dewsbury, yet where:
Are the Tafsir of Quran in English? Where are the programmes for non Muslims? Where are the programmes for sisters? Where is the social Muslim network? Where are the programmes where women if they are depressed(highest in Asians) can turn to? Where are the Muslim Education programmes?
We have enough Mosques. Let's do some real Dawah now. I believe the plan should not be given permission as it is an extension of a Chairman's ego, not for the purpose of Deen. Yet another Mosque is not the solution, apart from that I support the ethos of the people at Abbey Mills.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Abrille Alejandra on
28/05/2007 11:37 |
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I have studied the Tablighi Jamaat as part of my PHD thesisThe tablighi Jamaat is a global superpower, simply because of it's influence on the masses. Thank God it's peaceful. You people and many like you, who criticise have no idea as your criticism is tarnished by ignorance or a disturbing reliuance on hearsay. You criticising tablighi Jamaat is like Dunstable Town telling AC Milan that they have a poor attack.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Clive Furness on
28/05/2007 13:18 |
One of the problems with conspiracy theorists is that they rarely change their views in the light of any evidence, nonetheless one seeks to try. The situation at the moments is:
There isn’t a proposal, that is to say, there is no planning application. Whether the mosque is build in time for 2012 is almost entirely in the hands of the owners of the site, but it will require that they address the planning issues that have been raised with them over the previous 10 years and any new issues raised by the Olympic developments to the north.
The suggestion that it is a council or government ‘plan’ is mistaken. The land was purchased by the present owners some eight years before London presented its Olympic bid.
The ‘size’ will be apparent when and if a planning application for the somewhat smaller mosque is received. A decision will be made on the basis of the plan that is received, not on the basis of an architect’s drawing in Riyadh.
With regard to ‘location’, it is a former piece of industrial land bordered by two railways, a river and the northern outfall sewer, a piece of land that is divided from the nearest homes by a railway and a road seems to me to be as unobjectionable as it is possible to be.
Lastly with regard to the “nod and a wink agreement”. Well there isn’t one. Alan Craig's assertion that there is clear evidence of one is a little surprising as he doesn’t present any of this evidence. It is unfortunate that he has resorted to allegations that are both unfounded and likely to increase distrust between Newham’s religious communities.
Tablighi Jamaat A recent and repeated target of all the critics is Tablighi Jamaat. The most unguarded of these criticisms asserts that they are a terrorist group, or the next best thing to a terrorist group. There seem to be two strands to this assertion. The first is the ‘ante chamber to terrorism’ note from ‘intelligence sources’ found on the web. I have found the sa
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Richie on
28/05/2007 14:34 |
Thanks for that Emdad - Thanks for the in-depth analysis of this latest spasm of demagoguery. The linking of TJ to jihadis illustrates perfectly just how utterly out of touch with reality a lot of this War on Terror hysteria is.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Geordie on
28/05/2007 14:40 |
Plans are afoot to build a super all-singing all - dancing mosque in West Ham near to the site of the Olympic Games. It is proposed that this will hold up to 70,000 worshippers and include schools and other facilities. The area of the site will be approx 16 acres and when any overall picture of the Olympic Stadium is taken this building will feature prominently. The funding for this monstrosity is coming from Saudi with a total cost of about £100 million. A fundamentalist conversionist organisation, Tablighi Jammat, is allegedly connected with this gigantic mosque, said organisation considered dodgy by US intelligence. At the same time a huge Pentecostal church in the area where 12,000 worship every Sunday is being forcibly removed to make way for the Olympic compound. Alf Garnett will be turning in his West Ham grave as he listens to the football crowd at the Boleyn Ground or Upton Park as it used to be called. No longer cries of “Up The Hammers” but instead cries of “Up The Hamas.”
Sounds horrendous and so unfair. Why can't the Pentecostal Church be given a new site? They were there first.
While many Christians continue to support and shout for new Mosques to be built in this country - many Christian churches worldwide are being burned to the ground in Islamic countries -with not so much as a whimper by those same people/Christians.
If any religious faith wishes to build a place of worship of such a large size, then obviously, local people are entitled to voice their concerns about it, particularly with regard to the possible strains it will place on local transport, roads, parking etc.
This new mosque will be a God send (no pun intended) to people such as MI5. Bugs in the walls etc during construction to monitor the careless chat etc. All those people in one place will unfortunately make an ideal propaganda target for dissidents, so I don't know how this will make the local people react.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Richard the Lionheart - History on
28/05/2007 14:41 |
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40,000 suicide bombers less than 1000 yards from an olympic village. Munich anyone?
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Newham Councillor (Anon) on
28/05/2007 14:44 |
You probably need to take a stroll in the average London street to realise that this is not such a big deal to Londoners.
Although I'm not suggesting you actually do this, most Londoners come from a pretty diverse racial, religious and cultural background and the mosque in question is not really something that provokes any kind of reaction, unless of course there's some hidden agenda.
Although I have no religion, two of the most wonderful buildings I've had the pleasure of visiting are the Vatican and a mosque near the Cairo bazaar (the name of which embarrassingly escapes me). More of this is surely aesthetically better than domes and sports stadia?
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Tim on
28/05/2007 18:06 |
Geordie, what exactly do you mean by "horrendous." Is it the thought of Muslims praying or is it the building (as an eyesore)? I haven't seen any mosque that could be described as "horrendous" and are for the most part beautifully designed, constructed and decorated buildings.
If any religious faith wishes to build a place of worship of such a large size, then obviously, local people are entitled to voice their concerns about it, particularly with regard to the possible strains it will place on local transport, roads, parking etc.
But I do think that Eric has a point, if in fact all the objections are coming from a Christian group. If local residents are objecting, then fair enough, but is there any evidence of this?
Do the Christians have objections on the kinds of grounds I have discussed? Or are their objections merely based on religious rivalry?
We were also once told that a pentecostal church is being displaced due to the Olympic development. What is the name of the church? Was it given the opportunity to purchase the land on which the mosque is to be built? Or have they perhaps found somewhere else? What's the story there?
Another non-sequitur is the comment about churches being burnt down in Islamic countries. Traditionally, Islam has been very tolerant towards Christianity, regarding it as being of the same Abrahamic origin as Islam. In the majority of Muslim countries, Christians are allowed freedom of worship, and it is only in countries where the extreme Wahabi sect has gained power (Saudi Arabia and pre-2001 Afghanistan) that Christian churches are banned. There have been cases of churches in other countries being attacked by fanatics, but then there have been mosques in the UK attacked by those opposed to Islam. Two wrongs don't make a right.
So what we need here is an avoidance of knee-jerk reactions, and a considered view on whether or not this mosque is a justifiable development, based on planning and amenit
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If any religious faith wishes to build a place of worship of such a large size, then obviously, local people are entitled to voice their concerns about it, particularly with regard to the possible strains it will place on local transport, roads, parking etc.
But I do think that Eric has a point, if in fact all the objections are coming from a Christian group. If local residents are objecting, then fair enough, but is there any evidence of this?
Do the Christians have objections on the kinds of grounds I have discussed? Or are their objections merely based on religious rivalry?
We were also once told that a pentecostal church is being displaced due to the Olympic development. What is the name of the church? Was it given the opportunity to purchase the land on which the mosque is to be built? Or have they perhaps found somewhere else? What's the story there?
Another non-sequitur is the comment about churches being burnt down in Islamic countries. Traditionally, Islam has been very tolerant towards Christianity, regarding it as being of the same Abrahamic origin as Islam. In the majority of Muslim countries, Christians are allowed freedom of worship, and it is only in countries where the extreme Wahabi sect has gained power (Saudi Arabia and pre-2001 Afghanistan) that Christian churches are banned. There have been cases of churches in other countries being attacked by fanatics, but then there have been mosques in the UK attacked by those opposed to Islam. Two wrongs don't make a right.
So what we need here is an avoidance of knee-jerk reactions, and a considered view on whether or not this mosque is a justifiable development, based on planning and amenit'. This email was sent on 1/6/2009 12:23:53 AM. http://www.openmindsblogspot.com:80/HOME/tabid/36/EntryID/62/language/en-US/Default.aspx">
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By Nazuraki on
28/05/2007 20:32 |
Yeah, only some kind of crazy cult would want to build a place of worship THAT big!
Oh... wait a minute...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch
You guys are going to need to speak louder in the future- I can't hear you over the sound of your hypocrisy.
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Re: In defence of the Tabligh |
By e madman on
28/05/2007 20:35 |
As a muslim, I'd probably say that not having a 'supermosque' is a good thing for a number of reasons.
1) It's rediculously expensive. The millions needed to build this could easily be used to renovate and expand all the smaller mosques around the city. 2) That same money could be given to those in need - something all religions try to preach 3) Logistics - Every time there's a hockey/basketball game or concert at the Air Canada Center, traffic gets backed up on every stretch of highway within 20km. Parking is a pain in the arse and costs as much, if not more than the tickets due to the high capacities showing up. This happens fairly regularly in just this one corner of the city. A supermosque would create similar traffic jams and parking havoc every friday around lunchtime as well as on major religious days for us. 4) Mosques need donations to survive. If the city's population flocks to the supermosque, it would effectively shut down the small ones and put many priests out of one their major sources of income (mosques are run on donations, priests are paid in the form of gifts and by running classes for people and their kids) 5) I'm not sure about you, but I honestly think that most immigrants from that part of the world drive like they're still in that part of the world. They have no care for the people on the road around them, and to make it worse, they care little for whether or not double parking in a private lot might inconvenience someone. This is the very reason that a mosque just 5 minutes from my house got shut down. People were parking in people's driveways and even on their lawns when the city kindly provided free parking directly across the street. They even made arrangements with the neighboring church to share parking spots on busy days. Did people bother? Of course not. They parked wherever they felt like, inconvenienced the people living there as well as local business owners and were warned multiple times for it. Needless to say,
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